Paul & Mary Katsuro
The remarkable story of Paul and Mary Katsuro is a unique one not frequently told in the Japanese American community, but it certainly deserves wider recognition in terms of its significance of far-reaching U.S. foreign policy in the lead-up to Pearl Harbor. As a young man in his late 20s, Paul left Japan to pursue a new life in Peru. As a new resident working in Peru he lived a rather happy life, with an active lifestyle. Once, he even managed to rescue an elder Peruvian man who was drowning. With no one willing to jump in and save him, Paul swam out and used knowledge gained from a book to keep the man from dragging him under. “I remember the water was freezing cold to the point where it hurt your skin because it was in December. That is why no one wanted to save him.”
But Paul’s own life would be forever changed when the U.S. entered into the war, and mounting hostiles against Japanese people in Peru were suddenly at their breaking point. Without a warning, the Japanese Peruvians were taken aboard cargo ships and sent to the United States, where they were effectively kidnapped then imprisoned in Crystal City. Though he would never return to Peru, Paul’s unexpected life in the United States would lead him to Mary, whom he met in Chicago after the war. Paul had never had a steady girlfriend before Mary, but the two of them hit it off, and married.
This interview took place at Paul and Mary’s home on August 27, 2006 and was conducted by Grace Megumi Fleming. As Paul spoke only in Japanese, the interview was conducted originally in Japanese and translated into English by Rachael Marquez.
Where were you born?
Paul Katsuro: I was born in Shizuoka Prefecture, Shimizu city.
Mary Katsuro: Portland, Oregon.
When did you come to Peru?
PK: During the war. Actually, it was the year before the war started.
Would that be 1940? Or 1939?
PK: 1940.
Why did you come to Peru? Was it for business?
PK: Yes.
Was it your father’s business?
PK: No, I was working at the company. We had many samples of clothes, stocking and many more and we were planning to have business.
In Peru?
PK: Yes.
Were you selling the clothes that were made in Japan to Peru?
PK: No, there were many sellers and we were the company that overlooked everything. It was a big company.
Was it your father that was working at the company?
PK: No, I was working at the company.
Oh, how old were you at the time?
PK: I was 25 years old.
When were you born?
PK: I was born in 1916.
MK: February 6, 1918.
What day is your birthday?
PK: January 2nd.
Oh, New Year!
PK: Yes!
So Mary, you were born in Oregon, but you moved to Seattle at a very young age.
MK: Yes.
Do you have a Japanese name?
PK: Katsuro Shuuhei
Do you have a middle name?
PK: No.
Then is Paul also your official name?
PK: Yes.
MK: I named him.
PK: Her sister (referring to Mary’s sister) started calling me Paul and Paul naturally became my name.
MK: That’s right.
So he was an adult already when he went to Peru. He was 27 years old. Well if he was born in 1916 and this year is 2006, he would be exactly 90 years old. They picked him up in 1943. So in 1943 you went from Peru to Texas?
PK: In 1943, I went to New Orleans.
Oh, New Orleans.
PK: Yes, on a Convoy from Panama. We went to New Orleans by many boats that were connected to each other.
How many people were on the boat?
PK: I don’t remember. But I know that although it was mostly Japanese people on the boat, there were Germans and Italians as well.
Was it only people from Peru that went? Or were there people from other countries in South America that went too?
MK: I think there was.
PK: There were people from Panama that was on the boat as well. They were not in my boat but in the other one. Also, there were some people from Bolivia.
They all went to New Orleans?
PK: Yes.
Where did they take you in New Orleans?
PK: The boat stopped at the shore of New Orleans and we went straight to the camp.
When you arrived at the camp, were you sprayed with DDT?
PK: Yes. That’s poison.
Yes.
PK: Nowadays, we know that the DDT spray is poison and we do not use it anymore. You know how there is a place to drink water?
Yes.
PK: They would have milk in it. I don’t know why but I think it was made like that to surprise the Japanese people when they went to get a drink of water.
Oh really, wow. Were you alone? Or were you with your family?
PK: I was alone.
Were you single at the time?
PK: Yes.
Were your co-workers at your company treated the same way?
PK: My coworkers were put on the boat before me.
To America?
PK: Yes. We were exchanged with Americans that was in Japan.
So, were you the only one who was put in a different boat?
PK: Yes, I was the only one who was put in a different group.
What was the name of your company?
PK: ‘Peru Menka Kabushiki Kaisha’. We were making 4,000 acres of cotton and we would rent it out to Japanese people and Peruvians, and they would grow cotton. Then we would buy all the cotton from them. We were able to make good cotton in Peru.
So, you would grow the cotton in Peru and send it to Japan? Then Japan would make beautiful fabrics then send it back to Peru?
PK: Not exactly because we would sell the cotton to different countries that wanted to buy it as well.
What other things did the company sell?
PK: We sold things like rubber bands, door handles and many more. Because we were a trading company, we exported them to other companies that wanted to buy them. Subsidiary part of the company oversaw the cotton. We were also mining for copper.
What were the main goods that you handled? Was it cotton?
PK: Yes.
It is hard to imagine how big 4000 acres of cotton field is.
PK: Well, I think this community is 200 acres, so it was super big.
Wow that’s really big!
PK: Yes, it was.
Whose property was the 4000 acres of land?
PK: The company. We made a Peruvian company, so they owned it. There were individuals’ people who owned 4000 acres also.
Did the company provide housing for those who worked at the cotton field under the company?
PK: They provided a house, tractor.
What was your role?
PK: I was the salesman. I was selling to Japanese wholesalers in Peru. I just stayed in Peru. They had a huge Japanese business infrastructure.
Were there a lot of Japanese people in Peru?
PK: There were like 6000 Japanese people. In every town there were Japanese people.
Before the war, was the company trying to sell cars to Peru also?
PK: If there were orders for cars, they would sell cars too.
So you had a car to drive around to sell the items?
PK: I did not have a car. The company owned few cars, so people were able to use it if they wanted to for work.
What transportation did you use to sell to wholesalers?
PK: The wholesalers would come to our company to look at the samples and buy whatever they liked.
PK: We also sold Bridgestone tires.
You had a black and white picture with you riding a horse and you had a skull in your hand. Where was that taken?
PK: I liked the farm and I would go to the farm on Sundays to play. My friend would take me and there would be skulls laying on the ground near the grave, so I picked one up. There was a triangular hole in the skull, and I think it was from a surgery.
In the picture, it looks like the skeletons were just on the ground and not necessarily dug up.
PK: I feel like they were dug up but were left scattered. There were a lot of Englishman there and they took a lot of people’s belongings. They did this because they were looking for gold.
So, that might be the reason. Did you ride the horse a lot?
PK: I became fond of horses and rode them a lot.
Did you own a horse?
PK: Oh no, I could not afford one (laughs)
How did you guys meet? (Referring to Paul and Mary)
PK: At the tennis court in Chicago.
What were you doing at the time?
MP: I was working at a dress factory in downtown Chicago.
Were you sewing clothes?
MP: Yes I was sewing. Some were cutters and designers.
How did you meet?
MK: Our friend introduce him to me. Our friend was like the go-between person who introduced us to each other. He decided to introduce us because we both liked tennis.
Did you play tennis together?
MK: I don’t remember (laughs)
PK: But our grandchildren are really good at playing tennis and they became captains. Bryan was good at painting. One of our niece or nephews owns a restaurant in Sacramento.
You guys met after the war?
MK: Yes.
You must really like sports and moving your body.
PK: I also was swimming for 11 years every day. Two and a half hours of workout. Hike for an hour, swim for an hour, stationary bike 30 min a day. Because I rode the stationary bike so much, I wore it down to the point I had to buy a new one.
Wow that’s amazing!
PK: When I was in Peru, I rescued somebody.
Someone swimming?
PK: Yes, someone swimming. The coast gets deep suddenly and when the huge wave came, he got stuck in the dip and could not come up to the shore.
How were you able to save his life?
PK: He was an old Peru man and he was struggling to get to the shore. There were many people there, but no one was helping him so I swam to where he was and he grabbed on to me very tightly. I thought I was going to die with him because he was holding on to me so tightly, but I knew that in this situation, it is best to go underwater for him to let go. It worked and I was able to set myself free from his grasp. Then I grabbed him around the neck and chest area from the back so that he couldn’t hold on to me and that's how I dragged him to the shore.
Wow! Have you done those rescuing training before this? Or did you come up with this technique on your own?
PK: I like reading books and I would read a lot of genres of books. In one of the books I remembered reading about how to rescue someone who was drowning so I used that information. I remember the water was freezing cold to the point where it hurt your skin because it was in December. That is why no one wanted to save him. I looked for a boat first to use to save him but there were none at the time because the wave was too high and rough for the boats to go out.
That is really cool! You know, usually it takes people weeks to learn how to rescue people through training, but you were able to rescue someone with only the knowledge you had from reading a book. Would you like to tell us about your education? What was your highest education? Did you graduate high school?
PK: Yes, I went to high school.
Mary, did you go to school while you were in the camp?
MK: I left camp earlier because the government urged the younger people to leave the camp to work and get training. But I did graduate high school in Seattle.
What high school did you go to?
MK: Garfield High School.
Did you go further in your education?
MK: Well, I went to Chicago, found a domestic job after the camp. I was only in the camp for around a year. I lived in the very end of the camp.
Can you talk to us about the value of education that you instilled in your children? I know both of your daughters went to University. Was that something that was stressed in your upbringing.
MK: Not really, I think it had more to do with my daughters having friends who decided to go to University. It would be more interesting for them to go to university with their friends. They both did very well, and I am proud of them.
I think you are very educated because you are bilingual in Japanese and English. You are able to speak fluently in both languages.
MK: Thanks.
I feel that you (Paul Katsuro) are very educated as well because you like to read books and always wanting to learn something new. Do you read books every day?
PK: Yes, every day.
I see a book here that is called “Warera no bungaku” meaning “Our Education.” This one here is volume 5 and 6. I can see that you like reading about education.
PK: Yes.
I can see that you like learning and gaining new knowledge.
PK: Yes I do.
So although you did not go to college I can see that you learned many things on your own.
PK: Well, yes.
What do you like learning about?
PK: Well I like reading shorter books.
This book here though, is not a light read. It is thick and the content of the book seems difficult to understand.
PK: Well yes but I am reading this book because volume 5 is about an author named Mishima Yukio who got nominated for Nobel Prize in Literature. He committed seppuku and made a huge news.
Asking Paul and Mary Katsuro’s daughter: Did you learn to value education from your parents or was it something that you knew you had to go to college?
Oh no, it was from my parents. I remember my parents saying you need to learn to take care of yourself because you don’t know what is going to happen in life. Even if you are a girl you still need to learn how to take care of yourself. And it was instilled in us that we had to go to college and continue our education.
When you were at Peru, do you remember when Pearl Harbor was bombed?
PK: Yes. I was playing baseball and we won, so we were excited and the news came on, we learned that Japan went to war.
How did you feel at the time?
PK: Before Pearl Harbor happened, in Peru, people started to have negative feelings towards Japanese people and wanted them to leave the country. I don’t really want to say this, but I think Americans were behind the whole thing trying to spread hate towards the Japanese people in Peru.
How did they spread negative feelings towards Japanese people?
PK: Propaganda in the newspapers. Rocks were dumped in front of Japanese houses so that whoever passed by can pick up the rocks to throw at them or their house. Some Japanese people were raped and attacked.
This happened before Pearl Harbor?
PK: Yes.
Do you think one of the reasons for this was because Japanese did so well in business?
PK: Yes, but I think it is also because America just knew that they were going to war with Japan.
How did you know it might have been America?
PK: It is just a guess but considering what happened after, Japanese people owned many shops and buildings, and they would have the Japanese and Peruvian flags up so it was easy for the Peruvians to find out who owned the store. It looked as if Japan took over Peru because there were so many Japanese owned buildings.
Was there a reason why those Japanese shops had Japanese and Peruvian flags?
PK: We felt bad if we only had Japanese flag up since we were living in Peru.
So it was like a symbol of togetherness.
Pk: Yes.
Did you experience any discriminations? Did anyone throw rocks at you?
PK: No, not me personally.
Did your friends experience it?
PK: They went through horrible things.
What did they go through?
PK: Their house was broken into and everything was taken.
Are there any more examples of what was done to Japanese people?
PK: Many things happened not just in the city but in the countryside also.
In the capital, I heard that there was a day where the Peruvians decided to attack all at once. Do you remember that?
PK: No I do not but the Japanese schools were attacked also. Because many houses were destroyed, the Japanese people went to the Japanese schools to find shelter.
Was there anything else that was done to Japanese people?
PK: I do not know the details, but I do know that it was very horrible.
MK: There were so many horrible things that happened in Peru but I did not experience anything like that in America where I was at.
PK: After that there was a big earthquake.
Earthquake hit after Pearl Harbor?
PK: It happened after the riot that happened in Peru.
What happened after the earthquake?
PK: The riot calmed down after the earthquake. People rumored that Japanese brought the earthquake.
Why do you think things settled down after the earthquake?
PK: I’m not really sure.
I have heard that it was because people were too busy rebuilding their houses after it got destroyed by the earthquake that they did not have enough time or energy to attack the Japanese.
PK: I just think that the place I stayed at was not attacked because we lived in a mansion with other coworkers at a rich area of the town.
Were most workers single?
PK: Yes, but there were few that was already married but they sent their wife back to Japan because it was dangerous in Peru. I also heard some rumors that Japanese people took out their Katanas (Japanese sword) to fight back when their stuff was being robbed.
Were the Japanese workers who were already married have their own house before they sent their wives back to Japan? Or were they living in the mansion from the beginning?
PK: They were living in their own house before but moved into the mansion afterwards.
Even though these horrible things were happening, you put up with it and did not go back to Japan.
PK: Yes.
Why did you stay? Was it on your own terms or was it because the company ordered you to stay?
PK: Little by little people went back to Japan but first people that were able to go back to Japan was the people who worked at the consulate then the top successful businessman, and the teachers. So us workers were the last ones to be able to go back.
It is surprising because you would think the consulates would be the last to leave to protect the Japanese people. Why do you think they were the first ones to leave?
PK: That is a tough question. I’m not sure. Also Japan would send Americans back to America in a first class beautiful ship called “Asa no Maru” but Americans used old and almost sinking ship and crammed people in it. And Japanese got very mad about it.
Was this after the war or during the war?
PK: During the war. Another thing to add is that when we were on the ship to go to Peru, we were scared that we would get attacked by the German submarine, but we did not get attacked. On our ship, the word diplomatic corps was painted hugely on the side of the ship and maybe that is why we did not get attacked.
Now I understand why the Peruvian government was happy to get rid of the Japanese people and send them to the United States. I heard that it was a cooperative thing. The US requested this and the Peruvian government was ok with it. Why do you think that is?
I have heard that poor Japanese people were harder to catch because the government wanted the Japanese people who owned successful businesses and big farms to leave first because they wanted the business and the farms.
PK: I am not really sure, but I think that might be right because after the Japanese were sent to America, rich Japanese people’s holdings were spread amongst the population, the economy improved. Out of all the countries like U.S.A, Brazil, Peru was most successful economically because of the Japanese workers. So Japanese people in Peru was doing great financially and the United States was worried that the wealthy Japanese would use their money to support Japan during the war. To prevent this from happening, United States took Japanese people away from their positions and money. America is pretty smart. There is a reason why Japan lost the war. They are thinking financially and already started to strategize how to win the war before joining the war. They were getting ready to win the war easily.
Were there a lot of Americans in Peru when you were there?
PK: There were few but not as much as Japanese people.
How were you guys notified that you were being shipped to the United States?
PK: I just got a letter saying at this day in time board the ship.
What language was it written in?
PK: Spanish.
You spoke Spanish?
PK: Yes although I was not that good at it.
But did you know enough Spanish to get through?
PK: Well yeah otherwise I would be in trouble (laughs)
In Texas I met some second generation Japanese from Peru and they were able to talk fluently in Spanish and the Japanese was better than second generation Japanese here.
PK: That’s probably because Japanese education was forced upon them more. Because there was more time to study in school.
How did you feel when you heard that all of the higher ups from the company like the CEO and wealthy people were going to go back to Japan before you guys?
PK: To clarify, the CEO and the higher ups did not go back to Japan, but their families did. When I heard that many people were leaving, I felt that war was coming soon.
Peru was not part of the war, right?
PK: Peru did actually get in the war.
How did Peru get involved in the war?
PK: They declared war with the United States against Japan, but they were not strong enough as a country to do anything.
Was the president and the superiors of your company taken to the United States and put in concentration camps as well?
PK: Yes.
Oh so they were separated from their families.
PK: Yes, they were separated for a long time.
So I want to hear more about your experience when you went on the ship to go to the United States. What were some of the things that you brought with you?
PK: I actually took a lot of stuff. There was a limit to how much you can bring but my friend kind of arranged it for me so that I can bring more stuff.
How many suitcases were you able to take?
PK: I took two big trunk (luggage). I had a $100 dollar bill rolled up and sewed into my collar so that I can take with me. Chuckles.
How did you even get the money?
PK: I just went to the bank and took out as much as I wanted.
Were all the Japanese people in Peru taken to United States or did some stay?
PK: Yes, there were a lot of Japanese that left, but I do not know how many.
How much money did you roll up in your collar?
PK: When I got on the ship, we were getting inspected and they found the money and it got taken away. $100 dollar bill back then was worth a lot. I did not try to bring much, and I left my money at the bank. But after the war, I asked my friend that went back to Peru to withdraw my money to send it to me but sadly it was worth only a little by that time. I brought like around $5,000 dollars in my collar, but I left the rest in the bank.
You must have had a lot of money in your bank then.
PK: Yes, because my company decided to fold and so they distributed the money to the workers before we were sent away. My salary was not that high but because they distributed the money to us, I was able to keep money in my bank.
Did that individual American soldier that found your money took the money for himself?
PK: Yes. I reported him but nothing happened.
Did that happen to other people too?
PK: Yes. Also, there was this Japanese person who attached a chunk of gold on his cane and covered it with metal to disguise it. I believe he was able to take it to the United States without anyone finding out.
It is amazing how the cane did not get confiscated because they could have seen it as a weapon.
PK: Yes.
Do you know anyone else who got through with their money?
PK: I don’t know but I feel like people tried to take their money with them using different strategies. I know people did not put it in their shoes because you have to take off your shoes and you have to be good at hiding it because you get patted down.
Were you able to bring jewelry?
PK: I did not have any jewelry. But those who had jewelry, lost it by that time because they were robbed. Not even a single spoon was left in the house. Because the general public of Peru was very poor so even a spoon was worth a lot.
How was it on the ship?
PK: There was no trouble.
Were you able to go anywhere you wanted on the boat?
PK: No, we were not allowed to wander around. Once there was a rumor that the German submarine was coming to attack so that is when we were all allowed to go on the deck to prevent them from attacking.
How would that prevent them from the attack?
PK: Because they thought if they saw that there were Germans on the boat too, they would not attack.
Was the Germans and the Italians that were on the boat all from Peru also?
PK: Yes.
You said that the many boats traveled together but do you know how many boats there were? And did the soldiers have their own boats?
PK: I do not know how many boats there were, but the soldiers were in the boat for only soldiers and that boat traveled with us too. After passing the Panama, more boats gathered.
In the Pacific sea, there were no German submarines but in the Caribbean Sea there were reports of German submarines.
After a short break, the interview starts off with discussing Paul’s family background and his desire to leave Japan for Peru.
PK: I am a descendent from a family of history storyteller when there were no letters yet. Passed it down to generation after generation. I found out when I saw the family crest.
Did you see the crest in Japan?
PK: No, it was here (in California). There is a business that deals with family crest.
Did your ancestors tell history about samurai?
PK: No, it was not about Samurai.
Was the history that got passes down only about your family history?
PK: History of Japan. It was not just about the village. This was more like an occupation so back in the day the son would have the same occupation as their father. If you were a verbal historian, next generation would be a verbal historian as well.
Was your grandfather a verbal historian as well?
PK: Oh no it was not my grandfather. It was more long ago.
Did your siblings stay in Japan? Or did some leave Japan like you?
PK: All of them stayed in Japan.
Why did you decide to go to Peru? Did you want to go to Peru?
Pk: Yes, I wanted to go. Wanted to go overseas.
Why did you want to go overseas?
PK: Because I wanted to know more about other countries. There was a very little chance of us being able to go overseas. Only Brazil was open but mostly other countries did not allow Japanese to come in.
What month did you go to Peru?
PK: Around March of 1940.
Were you lonely going alone?
PK: Not at all. I was determined to do something, and I was burning with high hope.
Was it a beautiful country?
PK: It was mostly desert. People were farming along the river but other than that it was a desert.
So they grew cotton along the river.
PK: Yes, if the cotton was not doing so good, they would grow cane sugar. They were growing cane sugar before cotton, but cotton sells better with a good price.
Was it pretty on the coast?
PK: It was all just desert.
Then I bet the climate was very different from Shizuoka [their hometown].
PK: Yes, very much.
Shizuoka is famous for their tea and tangerine and many people fish at the ocean. It’s not always like this but sometimes in Peru, you could get huge bonito for 5 cents (1 or 2 pennies in U.S. dollar).
Did you eat a lot of seafood?
PK: Yes, I ate a lot. We would have a lot of Flounder. In the old days during the Inca civilizations, the workers at the seaport would carry the fish to their house in a relay style. One person would carry it to a certain place and a different person would carry the fish. They did it this way so that the fish would stay fresh.
What did you do during your pass time?
PK: Fishing, baseball, tennis and--
Was dance popular leisure activity?
PK: Oh yes, dance was very popular. There were some people who were party crasher though. Even if you forget your own birthday, people will gather around your house and as soon as there were a lot of people, they would start dancing.
What kind of dance was it?
PK: there were a lot of different kinds of dance but maybe it was mostly waltz.
What kind of music did you dance to? American? Peruvian?
PK: It was usually American songs. Depending on age, different songs were popular.
Did you celebrate any Japanese holidays like Obon?
PK: Well, we did have a Buddhist church, but we did not celebrate anything big.
Did you celebrate Obon?
PK: People there were mostly Catholic and only few people were Buddhist, so we did not celebrate much.
Did you dance the Japanese traditional dance?
PK: No, our dance was more American dance that was more popular at the time.
Did the women dance the traditional dance?
PK: Yes, some did.
Did you keep any Japanese customs or traditions in Peru?
PK: Yes, I feel like we were more Japanese than Japanese people in Japan. I feel like people were stricter. Issei (first generation) Japanese were more dependable and stable than the nisei (second generation) Japanese.
So since you were Issei, I bet you had to be serious and not goof around much. Jokingly
PK: That’s true Laughs. Yeah, we were honest and trustworthy.
PK: Japanese people started Miso company, Sake company and trains and electric generating company. People in Peru bought a lot of light bulbs because it was a first time that they had such a bright light bulb. The company told them that they shouldn’t buy too much because it would use a lot of the electricity. The people did not listen and plugged all the light bulb and obviously, the power was not strong enough to light all the light bulb and it wasn’t bright as it was before. Japanese people also owned many restaurants, laundromat, barbershop.
Do you consider where you lived kind of like a Japantown or was there a Japantown somewhere else?
PK: I wouldn’t really consider where I lived a Japantown and I don’t think we really had a Japan town because Japanese people were not concentrated in one area. Japanese people were everywhere, and business were everywhere.
It sounds like Japanese businessman were very successful.
PK: Yes, they were very successful. This story went all the way to Japan so Japanese people wanted to come to Peru. A lot of Japanese people who had farms along the coast hopped on to the train and went to Lima also.
Did you have a girlfriend at the time?
PK: Oh no [laughs]
How did you dance then? You just danced with guys?
PK: Well, I did dance with girls, but they were just friends.
Back in the day, wouldn’t you call those people you dance with girlfriend or boyfriend? Even if it is not a serious relationship, you would still consider them girlfriends and boyfriends?
PK: Well I mean I’m sure there were people like that but not me.
When you were having fun like this, how did you feel when they gave you the documents that said you had to go to the United States?
PK: I don’t really remember feeling shocked, but I remember thinking now I get to go to America.
Even though you are going to lose all your things like money that you made?
PK: I wasn’t making much anyways so it didn’t really matter.
MK: Well, earlier Paul said that he was able to bring a big trunk full of his belongings to America.
PK: That’s true, I was one of the few people that was able to bring more stuff than others.
What was inside?
PK: Mostly things to wear.
MK: You did bring a lot of blankets from Peru. They were very nice wool blankets.
PK: There were pictures of llamas on the blanket.
As a single man, I’m assuming that you did not have much like people with family would have?
PK: That’s true.
Did you have any furniture at your house in Peru?
PK: I was the only one living in the room, so I only had a desk.
Were you able to bring almost everything to the United States that you owned in Peru?
PK: Oh yes.
You just left your desk and money in the bank?
PK: That is about it.
What did you think about the American soldiers when they picked you up?
PK: The first thing I think of is the soldiers taking my money from my collar.
How did you feel when they took the money from you?
PK: I just thought oh well. You can’t really do anything because it is during the war. You just got to accept it.
Were you separated from your friends?
PK: We were all put in the same ship.
Were all Japanese people from Peru able to fit in one ship?
PK: yes.
But you said there were about 2000 Japanese people in Peru. Everyone was able to fit?
PK: Oh yes, they crammed us in one boat.
How was the sleeping arrangement?
PK: We slept in a very crowded area. There were bunk beds and the people sleeping above you were very close to you.
Were you sleeping on beds? Or was it a hammock?
PK: It was a wooden bed with a mattress.
If all Japanese Peruvians fit on one ship why were there so many ships in the convoy?
PK: There were other ships that were business ships. They would join for protection. They were afraid that the German submarines would sink their ships. There were airplanes above the ships for protection as well.
Did the airplanes have guns or bombs?
PK: Yes.
Was the ship in a convoy when it left Peru? Or was it only one ship when you left Peru?
PK: It was one ship. After Panama Canal we went with convoy.
Do you remember the Panama Canal?
PK: Yes, because I went to Panama Canal twice. Once during the war and before war.
When did you go to Panama Canal?
PK: I went to Panama Canal on my way to Peru as a student before the war. I took this test at the foreign affairs office and passed so I was allowed to go to Peru. I went from Japan to Hawaii to San Francisco to Los Angeles to Mexico to Panama Canal to Ecuador and finally Peru.
What did the Panama Canal look like when you went through it when you were being taken to the United States?
PK: There were sections and the level of the sea is different so with a pump, they pump up the water and they would open the gate and once the water was leveled out, they would go through.
After you left Peru, did you stop by anywhere when you were on the way to the United states?
PK: No we just went straight there.
PK: I just remembered the first time I went to Peru before war, after Panama Canal, we went to Colombia and there we got off and toured around the city. We saw a lot of banana trees and huge banana was growing on them. There were like 200 bananas in one bunch. They were only 50 cents in Colombian money. 2 Kids there helped me carry the banana to the ship and I gave them a 10 cents tip.
How long was the trip to New Orleans during the war?
PK: Maybe like a week. Some ships couldn’t go that fast, so we had to slow down for those ships.
If you did not stop by anywhere, the ship carried all the food?
PK: I’m guessing they did. Laughs
What did you eat on the ship?
PK: Lots of potato and meat and bread.
Was it good?
PK: Not really. Laughs. We were always talking about Japanese food while we were eating. We missed the Japanese food.
Was the men and the women separated in the ships?
PK: Yes.
Where did the kids stay?
PK: The kids stayed with their family in a better room.
I heard that kids and women were in one section and boys over 16 or so had to live in the men’s section and was only able to see each other once a day. Was that true?
PK: I think that true for some families.
You must have felt sad seeing families being separated.
PK: Well it was during war so--
What was your impression on New Orleans when you got there?
PK: New Orleans was very different from other countries, but it did have good weather. We got taken straight to the camp, so we did not really get to wonder around so I did not see much. They did not have hurricanes so that was good.
From New Orleans where did you go?
PK: We just went to another camp. We went to Texas camp near San Antonio and stayed a year there. Then we went to Santa Fe New Mexico and went to immigration department for 66 days and after that in San Pedro Los Angeles. Then we went to New Jersey and worked in the farm and then we stayed in Crystal City in Virginia. When we were in Texas, we were allowed to watch movie every week. All camps were practically the same but when we had to stay at immigration office one time, it felt like we were in jail. In the morning we would only get one scoop of soup and one slice of bread.
When did they take you to Crystal City?
PK: I don’t remember the dates, but it was the last camp that we went to.
We stayed around 2 years in Santa Fe. Mary’s father was there as well but we never met each other.
All together how many years were you in concentration camp?
PK: I’m not exactly sure the number of years but it was a while.
PK: I remember during the time at San Pedro, we would only get soup and bread, but I was surprised that everyone stayed healthy and no one got sick. I realized that there is no need to eat a lot because you just need the necessary amount of food to be healthy. Sometimes I would end up sitting at the end of the bench and the people will come to serve soup but by the time it got to me, the soup was practically gone. So, when that happens, I would only eat bread.
Also, I remember when I was in Texas, this German man climbed over the wire fence and successfully escaped. He would always be thinking about his family because he recently got married so one day he decided to run away. I do not know if he was able to see his family though because he did not bring anything with him. I don’t even know if he survived because there’s nowhere to hide, no food and at night coyote might come out. It is crazy to even think of escaping.
Did any Japanese people try to escape?
PK: Not that I know of. But there was this guy from Peru who was in camp at Panama and he went kind of crazy because of the lifestyle he was living in and tried to escape. The guards saw him and shot him to surprise him but not to kill him.
What did you do at the camp?
PK: We would usually play baseball, Karate, Judo.
Did you dance?
PK: We didn’t really dance because it was all guys there.
PK: We also acted in plays and I usually acted as a woman.
Why were you chosen to be the women?
MK: It was because he was small.
PK: Well there were no women at the camp, so someone had to do it. Without a women character, the play would not work out.
Where did you do the play the most?
PK: There were many plays in Santa Fe. A lot of Hawaiian people there liked to do plays and they were pretty good at acting. They would incorporate singing and instruments in the play as well. They would also do Manzai (Japanese style double act comedy, stand-up comedy). Also did Kabuki and I was also part of it.
Were you always the women?
PK: Yes.
Why were you always a woman?
PK: Laughs. People just casted me as a woman so I don’t know why. Maybe I did a good job as a woman. I was in theater in Santa Fe, Texas and Chicago. I have written plays also.
Do you still have the script?
PK: I wrote it so long ago; I don’t have it anymore. I would send some of my writings to the press and they added my writing to the newspaper.
What did you write?
PK: There was a writing contest and I turned in my short story and I got third place and it got on the newspaper.
When you were released from the camp, what were your feelings? Did you want to go back to Japan, or did you want to stay in America, or did you want to go back to Peru?
PK: I wanted to go to Peru. A lot of people went back to Japan immediately but found that there were no food in Japan and the condition there was horrible, so I did not go back to Japan.
Why did you not go back to Peru then?
PK: I got a job in New Jersey, so I just stayed. At the factory I worked in, they would have a lot of beans going by on the conveyor belt all day long. At first my eyes would feel weird staring at them for so long. We got 57 cents per hour. The most I worked was 103 hours in a week.
Were you able to even sleep?
PK: I barely got anytime to sleep. When we finished with the crop, the hours got shorter. When there were no crops, they would have some that were frozen so we would work on those. We had spinach and lima beans.
I heard that a lot of Japanese people were not allowed to go back to Peru.
PK: The Peru government did not accept Japanese people back. I was already going to work so I did not apply but those people who applied to go back did not get accepted.
Is this why you chose to stay in the United States?
PK: Yes, but I already had a job, so I just stayed. Also, I knew someone who lives in Chicago and they told me that I can live with them so that is why I decided to go to Chicago. Then I got married in Chicago.
I heard that you were sharing one bed with this other person. During the day you would work, and the other person would sleep and at night the other person would work, and you would sleep in the same bed.
PK: Oh, that was not me. That was someone I met along the way.
When you were at Seabrook, what did you do for fun?
PK: I didn’t do much there because most of the people there liked to gamble. I don’t gamble so I didn’t join.
What kind of gambling would those people do?
PK: They mostly played Poker.
Were there a lot of women in Seabrook?
PK: Yes because it was a family camp.
Did you learn English there?
PK: I learned English in Chicago.
When you worked at Seabrook, were you always at the assembly line or did you go out in the field also?
PK: I worked a little in the field but mostly in the factory.
Was the pay better in Chicago?
PK: At first, I worked at a fishing pole making company and it was 3 dollar per hour. Then I worked at company that made mimeograph machines and at a company that made cabinets.
Did you have a girlfriend before Mary?
PK: Nope.
What did you think when you first met Mary?
PK: laughs
MK: He is embarrassed.
What did you think Mary, when you first met Paul?
MK: Well, nothing special. Laughs
When did you fall in love with Paul?
MK: I don’t remember how long it took us, but we dated for a while and yeah.
PK: In Japan, people don’t like the year of the Hinoe uma (43rd combination of sexagenary cycle). It is considered bad and people try to avoid that year to do anything special. But Mary is born on that year, but I didn’t really care about it.
There’s a year of horse which comes every twelve years and it is hard for women to get married who are born on that year of the horse because it is thought that they have a strong and fierce personality. But isn’t the year of Hinoe Uma considered worse?
PK: Yes.
Is the reason for not wanting to date a woman who is born in the year of Hinoe Uma the same as the reason for not wanting to date women who are born in the year of the horse?
PK: I don’t really know the details, but I think so.
What year were you born in?
PK: I am born in the year of the dragon?
PK: These are just rumors so it’s not always like this. Women and men have those years that is called yakudoshi (bad year) and they are usually extra careful in those years.
After you got married and had your first daughter, why did you decide to go to Texas?
PK: It wasn’t like I couldn’t make a living in Chicago but when I looked at the newspaper, I saw that there were more opportunities in Texas and Texas was doing well economically so we decided to go. A lot of people were growing plants, so I decided to work at the green house, and I start my own business. I imported plant pots from Japan and sold my plants and that’s how I made money.
I would like to end this interview by asking you one more question. Because you went through many hardships and experienced many things and you have obtained many survival skills, is there anything you would like to share and say to generations after you. Are there any words of wisdom?
PK: Some years, I worked all year long without a day of rest. I just want to say, work hard and diligently.
Interview conducted by Grace Megumi Fleming. JAMsj thanks Grace for allowing the museum to archive and share these oral histories